Q&A: Braves GM Alex Anthopoulos on team culture, replacing Dansby Swanson
The Braves have won five consecutive NL East titles and a World Series championship since Alex Anthopoulos took over as general manager and president of baseball operations in November 2017, at a time when the Braves were in the throes of an MLB investigation into international free-agency infractions that forced former GM John Coppolella to resign and led to severe penalties for the organization.
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The difficulties that many predicted for the Braves didn’t materialize, and the team instead thrived under the leadership of Anthopoulos and manager Brian Snitker, with on-field success playing a big part in markedly increased revenues and a payroll that’s moved from the bottom third of MLB to the Braves’ current eighth position at just below $200 million, a franchise record.
During a nearly one-hour interview on The Athletic’s “755 Is Real” podcast with co-hosts David O’Brien and former Braves reliever Eric O’Flaherty, Anthopoulos discussed the team’s success, his strategy of signing young players to long contract extensions well before free agency — in some cases long before a player has even reached arbitration — plus the status of Max Fried with two years before free agency, and seeing shortstop Dansby Swanson leave for a larger free-agent offer from the Cubs one year after another franchise stalwart, Freddie Freeman, also left as a free agent.
Anthopoulos also discussed whether the Braves are prepared to have 22-year-old Vaughn Grissom replace All-Star and Gold Glove winner Swanson.
Vaughn Grissom as the Braves shortstop? Atlanta GM Alex Anthopoulos is optimistic.@DOBrienATL & @EOF34 spoke with AA on the latest episode of the "755 Is Real podcast" to see what he thinks.
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— The Athletic MLB (@TheAthleticMLB) January 11, 2023
Here are excerpts from the first half of that interview, edited for clarity and brevity. The second half will be excerpted here on Thursday, including the Fried situation.
I know you hate the word “culture,” but can you talk about winning five consecutive division titles and the vibe or attitude in the clubhouse with a team that’s had that kind of success and isn’t rebuilding or taking a step back?
Look, obviously the word culture, there’s a reason it exists — you need to put a term on it, right? But I guess I push back against the thought of like, let’s say I get the GM job with the Braves, and I’m in my interview, and I’m like, “We’re going to change the culture.” How many times do you hear that? And I’m not changing anything. I’m not down in that clubhouse. There’s not a manual, I’m not handing out a manual to the guys, “This is the Braves culture, this is what we’re doing.” I just don’t believe in that. You can read all types of like books on it, and so on.
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I think it’s the people you choose to bring in. The people make the culture. You can say that we as a front office or a group have a core group of values and things we look for, and go out and get those guys that embody those things. But we don’t trade for a guy and, like when we added Joc (Pederson) and (Stephen) Vogt (coming out of the All-Star break in July 2021) for example, I didn’t say, “Hey, guys, this is the Braves way. This is the Braves’ culture. Here’s the manual, you’ve got to read up on it. You’ve got a quiz tomorrow.” We did our work — I knew Joc from L.A., and Vogt, we did our work as an organization and knew what kind of guy he was. The only thing I would tell those guys — I’m not going to tell them what they need to do playing-wise — is, “Hey, we need some life right now. We’ve been kicked a bunch. We’re hurting a little bit. We’ve got the trade deadline (coming up). I need some energy. I know what you guys bring.”
I’m not telling a quiet guy to do that, right? Because that’s not who they are. But we’re not acquiring those guys. So, by design — look, those guys can both play. But they were targeted, specifically, because at that moment in time, we needed to change the vibe. And I don’t think it’s a culture thing. But like, they’re fun-loving, they’re happy-go-lucky. They got swag. They got an edge. You smile when you see those guys come in a room. Vogt, I’d always heard he’s awesome, he’s funny, he’s charismatic. Obviously, we knew performance-wise what he could do as well. But I told them both, “I need you guys to bring what you bring,” that energy and everything else. I told them, “Our clubhouse, it’s kind of down. It’s down in the dumps right now. They need a little life.” That’s not to take anything away from those guys (who were on the team).
There’s a feel. You need talent, of course. But there’s other components to it. The players set the culture, set the tone. I just don’t believe in going to buy a book and reading about how to be a leader, how to set culture. Yeah, there’s things organizationally that we believe in, but it’s not because it’s an edict from one person, right? Like, (Brian Snitker) is gonna manage the way he manages. He believes in what he believes in, and he’s setting the tone by being himself. And the players. So it won’t be the same each year. There’s certain core values we’re going to have and guys play every day here.
I always said in my mind a good clubhouse, I think part of what it does is maybe the winning is not a guarantee, but it prevents the floor from caving in. You have a lot of times where things aren’t going well, and with the bad clubhouse (there is) the finger-pointing, the complaining, the infighting. And I think it’s with the staff as well. I’ve been around staffs that don’t get along. And we have a good staff here. Are they all hanging out every day, going to dinner? No. But they get along. There’s a respect there. They have to work together as a team. I’ve said, if you’re hiring a manager, the best manager for me might not be the best manager for some other GM. The best coach for Snit might not be the best coach for some other manager, right? And it’s a combination of things. We’re around each other way too much, way too often. And separately from that, it’s a quality of life thing.
The most gratifying thing to me is when our players tell me, “I love that you guys value clubhouse, and this is such a good place.” It means a lot to me. I remember, 2020 in the postseason, some of the relievers told me it’s the best clubhouse they’ve ever been in. And these are guys that have been in baseball a long time with a lot of teams. That’s rewarding to me. Of course you want to win, but knowing that it matters — the atmosphere, the vibe, being in that clubhouse every day, it’s a great place to be. And I think it spills out into the field. And the fans see it too. And the fans fall in love with the team. So I think it’s just a total combination. Of course, winning is king. But I think when you can combine it, that’s the way you should do it.
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Has that made it more difficult the last couple of years, to see the guys that you’ve had exit via free agency and bigger offers from other teams? I mean, you’re not going to keep everybody obviously even if you have a $300 million payroll, but to see the guys that you’ve seen leave through free agency — Freddie Freeman, Dansby Swanson, and now Luke Jackson. Are those departures tougher because of what they bring overall? Or do you just have to accept that you’re not going to be able to keep every guy?
Both. It’s tough. I think about it definitely, because you know what they bring, you know how important it is. And you wonder — OK, there’s gonna be a void, and how does that void get filled? It will get filled organically, whether somebody wants to or not; it just happens. Definitely won’t be the same. But that’s what I’ve talked about before, you want to flood the clubhouse (with good guys). If you can get 26 of 26, great, (but) it’s hard to do. But you flood the clubhouse, and if you lose guys — which is tough, and certain guys are going to hurt more than others — if the other guys are quality individuals, maybe they step out of their shells. Like, in the front office, it’s the same thing — you lose people, all of a sudden people are going to be brought into more prominent roles, and they might find out about themselves a little bit, and do more. But I wouldn’t sit down with anybody, and I know Snit certainly wouldn’t, and say, “All right, we lost these guys, you gotta be this guy.” You know, they’re gonna find their own spot. But I think about it all the time. When we lost Freddie last year, I was like, wow, how’s this gonna work, you know? Such a mainstay, a pillar. And organically, it just — like, we didn’t have a team meeting; everyone knew. But we had enough good guys that, organically, they together as a group came up with it.
Now, do you want to do it every single year? No, you’re gonna lose something (if you do that). You realize that. But if you keep trying to bring in quality guys, I think you should be able to survive. Because I can’t tell you how the other guys are going to react. They have to be themselves. But that being said, you still need depth, you still need talent, right? Look, we had those guys that we lost. They were there in 2021, when we were under .500. And they were having great seasons, you know? Like, they did everything they could, and then you throw in (Austin) Riley and Charlie Morton and Max Fried — those guys were having awesome years. I’m listing a lot of guys that are great guys who were having great years. And even then, they can’t do it alone, right? They only get four at-bats, they only start once every five days, they can only pitch so many days out of the ‘pen. So that doesn’t guarantee winning. So it is a reminder of, like, you still need to be deep. And I think that’s the hardest part in this is that, yeah, we don’t have a salary cap, but in a way, you all have a (payroll) number that you work with.
So you know that you’re going to have to make it all fit, you know that you want your guys to get more expensive because they’re going to be playing well — it doesn’t do us any good for guys to have bad seasons or get hurt because now they’re not going to do as well in salary arbitration the following year. That doesn’t do us any good. So in theory, you want these guys to win Silver Sluggers, be All-Stars, keep getting raises, and so on. But I’ve said this, there’s only so much pie to go around.
So there’s a payroll number, and the one thing I know is that we can’t have 10 good players, and the rest of the roster is below average. Even if those (10) guys are elite, it’s probably not gonna be good enough. And it’s finding that balance, and it’s hard. It’s hard on fans. I had my kids and my wife during that time, right, saying, “You’re gonna lose these guys?” You know, like, “Come on. We’re gonna get crushed.” I know, it’s hard. But we were expected to put a good team out on the field, which means we’re gonna have tough decisions to make, especially if these guys become great players. Which in turn has transitioned us to be more aggressive signing players (to long-term extensions). I’ve never (previously) been apt to sign guys with a year of service or less than a year of service; I’d rather wait four, five, six years. But we’ve changed that in light of how hard it is to keep players.
Do you like this revamped bullpen? Do you like where you are, the team overall going into spring training? Are there still some needs you think that you can fix in spring training? Or will you wait and see how things go for a while at spring training before you consider possible additional moves?
Yeah. I mean, look, you always want more, right? Our job is to worry. I like the bullpen. I like the depth we have now. Because you know, whatever we think we have going into spring, we’re not coming out with it right? Guys are gonna get hurt. You don’t know who, but you hope it isn’t someone significant. You’re constantly worried about depth and who the next guy is. So yeah, if everyone’s healthy, you can look at the roster and feel pretty good about it. But I think we obsess about the next line — like, we know, we’re going to need, I’d say 11 guys will make starts, on average. So, like, who are those 11 guys going to be? I know the first four are going to be, but beyond that, who’s it going to be? In the bullpen the same way, a lot of guys are going to be out of options right now. How challenging is that going to be? Do we carry one long guy, two long guys? You go with one long guy, he goes two or three innings, he’s down two or three days. The next day your starter goes an inning and a third and gets hit in the ankle. You’re going to crush your bullpen that day, and you can’t option guys — those are all the things you have to worry about over the course of six months. Playoffs are totally different.
But look, we’re gonna need guys to bounce back. We have guys under contract that had down years — I mean, stating the obvious — and have talent and ability, but you can’t fill everything. Right? So we’re gonna have to take some shots, go for some upside. But I think we have a good team. But beyond that, who’s gonna stay healthy, what kind of seasons will guys have… I expect us to be competitive. And as the year goes on, we’re gonna have to adjust like we always do.
We talked about this on the podcast a lot last year, and I said last summer I really didn’t think that you would be willing to let Dansby Swanson exit and replace him at shortstop with a 21-year-old kid (Vaughn Grissom) who’ll be in his first full season. Was it purely financial, or were you so impressed with what Grissom did last year filling in at second base, and what Wash (infield coach Ron Washington) told you about him, that you felt confident about going into next season with him as short, if that’s how it shakes out? Are you fully prepared to do that, if he looks good at spring training?
Vaughn is going to compete with Orlando Arcia (for the shortstop job). So maybe I’ll just address the Orlando Arcia part first. Arcia, when we got him, had been an everyday shortstop (with Milwaukee) and got shifted over to third. Arcia had been a starting shortstop, obviously great arm strength, great hands. The bat had been hit and miss. But (during) the 2020 COVID season he swung the bat well. Small sample, but we liked what we saw; we thought there were some things with some swing changes that we could implement. We’d actually tried to get them at the trade deadline of 2020. We couldn’t get a deal done. And then we stayed with it. Talked to them in spring training of ’21. He got off to a slow start, beginning of ’21, (Luis) Urías took over shortstop and Arcia’s playing third. We made a trade. We had (Pablo) Sandoval at the time, and we optioned (Arcia) and wanted him to work on a swing change, and just some things with his lower half. And he did it. He played great down in Gwinnett.
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We knew there was more in there. He’s still a young man, good defender. And we signed him to a two-year deal with an option that offseason (after 2021). He didn’t have a great ’21, but we still really believed in him. We thought there was a lot more than what he did with the bat last year; we’re not so surprised by what he did. We think he’s capable of giving you a low-.700 OPS with really good defense with his hands and his arm. So we think he can be an everyday shortstop. He just didn’t have that opportunity here (in 2022), and with the Brewers with the trades they made, he didn’t have that opportunity anymore. But he had proven to be a starting shortstop. We still think he can, he’s still a young guy.
On shortstop prospect Vaughn Grissom: ‘Look, we saw some flashes, things that looked good. Other times, it was a little rough.’ (Brett Davis/USA Today)Vaughn, when we call them up, we were going with the most upside. There was a debate of who we call — do we call him up or somebody from Gwinnett? We felt he gave us the best chance to win. He had been a work in progress from a defensive standpoint. Young, high energy, the makeup’s off the charts, his aptitude’s off the charts. Big guy, so it’s easy with your eyes to say, “I don’t know if this guy could stick at shortstop.” Hadn’t played a whole lot of second base; played it a little bit, but primarily (had played) on the left side of the infield. So it was a crash course. He was coming in really early — on the first bus (to the ballpark) every day on the road, and here in Atlanta, getting early work with Wash. But he was still getting up to speed playing (second base). And look, we saw some flashes, things that looked good. Other times, it was a little rough. But the one thing with him is he’s gotten better every single year. And we didn’t get to see him at the big-league level on the left side of the infield.
In the offseason, we have a meeting with the staff, going through the offseason — approach, plans and so on. Want to get everyone’s take and opinion. We talked about Vaughn as a group. And Wash felt like — look, we clearly wanted Dansby back. That was the priority. But you just don’t know when guys get to free agency where the dollars are gonna go. And you have to talk through, if we can’t get there financially, where are we going next? Do we have to trade for a guy? Do we have anybody internally? And the more it was discussed as a group, as much as Dansby was clearly the guy we wanted back, if it wasn’t going to happen, could Vaughn or Orlando handle that job? You know, could it be something where you’re hitting them ninth? You know you’re not gonna get a six-win (WAR) season, highly unlikely, like you just got (from Swanson in 2022), but can they hold the fort down, and do they have upside? And we knew what Orlando Arcia could do, we felt pretty good about what the bat is, we know what the defense is and so on. And we like him.
And then the question was, can Vaughn handle shortstop defensively? I remember asking Wash many times, like, I don’t know what he’s going to do with the bat, but if he wins that starting job, are we going to come to a point in the season where we feel like, hey, we have to make a change defensively? And he felt like with work, with proper reps, and so on — he said, “If I can get him for a week to 10 days at a time in the offseason, three times, I will have him ready come spring training to compete for that job.”
To say we don’t care about the bat is probably a little strong. But same way behind the plate — the first priority is the defense, especially at that position. Gotta catch the baseball, make the plays. So I know Orlando Arcia can make the plays. So does Snit, so does the staff. Vaughn, Wash really believes can do it. He’s young, and he’s got tremendous upside with his bat, his bat-to-ball skills and everything else. So, Wash became pretty emboldened. Look, he loved Dansby — that would have been his first choice as well, like all of ours. But Wash was adamant that this guy (Grissom) can do it. It’s not saying he’s gonna win a Gold Glove. He said, “It will be a process. It will take time.”
Look, I can make a decision as a scout, my eye test — you know, “He’s 6-3, he’s big” and so on. But I remember watching J.J. Hardy early on and (thinking) he doesn’t have the actions, and that guy was a Gold Glover. I remember Marcus Semien with the White Sox, I didn’t think he’d ever play shortstop. And Wash made him into a Gold Glover.
If it wasn’t Wash, I can’t tell you I’d feel the same way. But he feels so strongly about (Grissom’s) aptitude, his instincts. One thing I’ve learned from Wash is, I started as a scout, and I’m always looking at the tools, all the time. And he talks a lot about the intellect, the instincts, the aptitude, the attention to detail at that position, how critically important it is. And Vaughn has that in spades. And that’s a big part of the position, right? Anticipation. Obviously we’re going to work on first step and everything else. But he really thinks Vaughn has those intangibles and those tools to be an everyday big-league shortstop.
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What the bat is going to be — I think, eventually he’s going to be very good hitter. When, I don’t know. It could be two years from now, three years from now. But we definitely believe in the bat. And if Wash believes that he can be that guy — it may not be in ‘23, he may get optioned. He knows that. He may, for whatever reason, need to go back (to the minors), but he’ll have every opportunity to do it. And Orlando will too, and we’ll go with the best player.
And the reports out of the Wash-Grissom shortstop sessions this winter in New Orleans have been good?
He’s got one more (week-long session) left in January. Every time I talk to Wash — and I wasn’t leading the witness or anything either — I’m like, “Well, if things change, you’ve got to tell me.” And he’s adamant — “This guy competes, this guy can do it,” you know? And I think he’s more impressed (this winter).
I even asked Wash. I said, look, I don’t want to put any, like, expectations on you, or pressure. No one’s batting 1.000, right? So everyone’s job is to believe in the players and work with them and so on. So even when I made my comments to the media about Wash and this and that, I asked him, I said, “Are you OK if I share this? Because I don’t want to put more expectations on you.” He said, “Bring it.”
I said, I’m happy to just keep my mouth shut and you know, leave it. But I try to be as transparent as I can be. Like, you want people to understand why we’re making decisions. Why we think Vaughn Grissom has got a shot to do it. And Wash really believes in him deeply. And look, I can have an opinion, like everyone can. But that’s the guy that should know better than anybody else.
(Top photo: Gregory Bull / Associated Press)
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